Fire Engines Photos

i bvelieve it is day manned by a whole time crew and th rds crew are for the second pump and specials

Added by Alan Ramsay on 15 April 2012.

Anyone know why British hybrid manned fire stations all seem to employ on-call personnel? Given that there are around 20 off duty full time personnel for every 5 people on duty, what is wrong with calling out the off-duty crews if a second unit is needed?

Added by Rob Johnson on 17 April 2012.

It depends by the service but some brigades do have their off duty crews 'on-call' for some days. Wholetime stations work on a rota of 2 days, 2 nights then four days off and day manned stations will work a slightly different rota but the day crews must still have a certain number of days off.


Added by David Jones on 18 April 2012.

They are not allowed under currant agreements with the union.

Added by Dave Price on 18 April 2012.

I would imagine that it is because they are simply off duty and entitled to their rest periods.

Added by Gearoid Blake on 18 April 2012.

Rob, on the station I work very few firefighters live locally, one lives 100 miles away.....in fact in LFB quite a few live in Spain and one that I know of lives in Poland....fly in for their tour of days and nights and fly back for days off.
Some brigades do what you are suggesting....Southport (Merseyside) crews its ALP with off duty personnel which are 'on call.
There are two other issues which prevent this being a wide ranging practise.....firstly the crews would expect payment for being 'on call' which prevents them spending their off duty time from being free to do what they wanted to do....go to the sea-side, the pub or whatever.....if you pay them well you might as well have retained staff anyway. Secondly there are time limits for hours of being at work. Some whole time firefighters also do retained duties at other stations but they do have restrictions as to what times they can be on call. After all you would not expect a firefighter to rescue you from an fire during the day who has been out all night on a barn fire, any more than you would expect him to be driving a truck all night. Sorry Rob its a virtual non starter.

Added by Barrie Green on 18 April 2012.

Rob, it's mostly down to money. Plus, UK firefighters would have a fit were they to be called-in on their days off! After completing their four shifts, they need the four days off that they get to recharge the batteries and settle the mind.

The second engine at most day-crewed stations is rarely busy so it would not be financially viable to staff it with full-time crews. RDS firefighters get called-out from their places of work or, more often than not, their beds, and they provide a vital service to their communities.

Added by Yelp Bullhorn on 18 April 2012.

I know that sometimes full time firefighters are also work retained at their local stations on their time off but that is entirely their choice.

Added by Andy on 18 April 2012.

If so, it seems counterproductive. In an emergency, what is better than having people attending who do this work with the same kind of equipment all the time? On Long Island, quite a few of our on-call firefighters were FDNY full-timers, and their experience was very useful when we got working fires. Many were operators or junior officers, and they had a lot more exposure to serious incidents and getting the most out of complex appartatus than our "civilians". For them, a structure fire was an everyday routine event, while many of the younger on call laddies really had no idea of what to do first.

Added by Rob Johnson on 18 April 2012.

Just one more comment. In the US, most fire department employees are not unionized. In cases where they are, it seems the unions are very co-operative. Many cities actually require firefighters to live in the city, and to respond to man second-line apparatus if needed. Because around 80% of the operational force is off-duty at any one time, you don't need everyone to turn up to effectively double the front line capability. Quite a few European fire brigades solve the problem by providing accommodations at or adjacent to fire stations. In exchange for free digs, the station personnel contract to respond on call some of the time.

Added by Rob Johnson on 18 April 2012.

Retained fighters are highly trained in the UK and most are very experienced.....they also bring to the service skills from their 'other' employment which can be useful in emergency situations. I resent any suggestions that 'on call' crews are in any way 'second class'.

Added by Barrie Green on 18 April 2012.

Hi Rob , retained firefighters are in this country paid and trained to standards sufficient to enable them to carry out a broadly similar role to wholetime, indeed their core competancy requirements are the same , some retained firefighters on a busy rds station can go to many hundreds of fire, rtc , afa calls etc per year and would indeed surpass the amount some wholetime firefighters go to per year due to the shifts and holidays , I also feel we do them a diservice at times by not recognising this , I live in a part of the country where it is not uncommon for rds stations to have six and seven hundred calls per year , I also know at quieter stations the opposite exists as it does with wholetime the difference being the cost , it is very cost effective to use rds hence the reason they exist , I am sure the same applies across the pond

Added by Alan Ramsay on 18 April 2012.

For a lot of RDS crews in this country "structure" fires or Chemical incidents, RTC/A calls are bread and butter calls. Training counts for a lot. I dont want to start a debate but a retained firefighter on a busy RDS station doing 500+ calls a year is likely to see more action than a Wholetime/Career FF on a 1000 call a year station, by definition of the 4 shift system. RDS and Day crewing is a financially viable and effective means of providing cover in the UK. Have to agree with Barrie too, times change, everywhere is different. Full or part time, volenteer crews too we rely on then all, especially the commitment they put in.

Added by Gary Simpson on 18 April 2012.

I see with interest that Alan Ramsay talks of retained stations in his neck-of-the-woods answering six- to seven-hundred calls per year. Where is this, Alan?

But my main question is: what's the busiest retained station or retained unit at a day-crewed or wholetime station in the UK? Some years ago, two-pump retained Rugeley in Staffordshire were regularly responding to 700 calls pa. At the time I believed this to be the UK's busiest retained station. So who can trump that? I bet someone can!

And at the other end of the spectrum: how about the UK's quietest wholetime station? Any others?

Added by Yelp Bullhorn on 19 April 2012.

Hello Mr Yelp Bullhorn , I am from north of the border and I know of two stations in Strathclyde approaching the figure mentioned and this is not out of the ordinary , I myself served on an rds station which consistently averaged over 300 per annum which is approximately double the amount a fire-fighter working shifts at the next nearest whole-time station worked and if on specials somewhat less , I am proud to have served my community for over 30 years and have worked on two stations along with rds and whole-time without any issues both respecting each others commitment to the job that we all who read this forum undoubtably love

Added by Alan Ramsay on 19 April 2012.

New Milton in Hampshire responded to 1, 015 calls in 2006/07! As for the quietest I would imagine that Biggin Hill in London or Wokingham in Berkshire would be possible contenders.

Added by David Jones on 20 April 2012.

Newcastelton RDS in Lothian and Borders average about 12 calls a year. Due to its remote location it has to be kept open as the next nearest stations are some considerable distance away.

Added by D. Cruickshank on 20 April 2012.

As I understand it, on-call firefighters have regular "day jobs". Good for those employers in New Milton, if their workforce are dropping everything three times a day to respond to shouts!
I can see it is probably very rare for full-timers to attend as many calls per person, as they are only responding 25% of the time.

Added by Rob Johnson on 20 April 2012.

Years ago....it was common for on call fire fighters to be released from their main employment to attend incidents during works time, this obviously required a lot of cooperation and good will from employers. This does not seem to happen these days, many on-call staff are self employed or work shifts which permits them to book available during prescribed hours.....quite a number are airport or industrial firefighters which is good for both jobs sharing experiences, I did know a guy who was Deputy Chief at an airport and was an on call Firefighter with the county brigade

Added by Barrie Green on 21 April 2012.

Thanks for replying, Alan, but what two stations are they? I'd be really interested to know.

And does anybody know about Ongar in Essex? It's wholetime and is in a small village. I can't imagine them being particularly busy.

Added by Yelp Bullhorn on 22 April 2012.

Cowbridge in South Wales were a WT station who answered 140-150 calls a year at one time. Quieter than a lot of retained stations in Wales.

Added by Gary Simpson on 22 April 2012.

Re-Ongar in Essex: This has been retained for the past 6 years at least. It was only ever WT due to the fact that it used to be very difficult to recruit retained firefighters as Ongar was a commuter town. However, things change and there is now a retained crew there. I am not sure of how many calls they do annually now but historically as a WT station it used to be around 250-300.

There are many retained stations who do this and twice as many calls. Probably the busiest retained station in Essex now is Braintree which does around 7-800 calls a year. There are many more who regualarly do over the 300 including Corringham, Saffron Walden, Maldon, Billericay, Wickford, Old Harlow and Witham to name but a few. Dunmow and Stansted both used to do well over 500 calls a year but a change in AFA attendance policy in Essex has reduced this dramatically as they no longer go to Stansted Airport on a vitually daily basis!!

Tillingham is probably the quietest retained station answering around 80 calls a year and has the old Bradwell Nuclear Power Station on its station ground which is now entering the last throes of being decommissioned.

Added by Kevin on 23 April 2012.

Sorry all but you all seem to be flying in all directions it appeared to me the thread that started the discussion was not how many calls
"retained Stations or crews" answered or thier compatency (which I have no doupt of ), but the fact that Wholetime or Day Crewed personel did not attend when "off duty" This is not a case of unionisation and in many Brigades they still do but is in fact a case of Health and Safety and EU employmrent Laws which restrict said Wholetime and Day crew personel in so many ways Brigades are retisant to use them / or are restricted so much that the cannot keep up the times to make it financially viable.
As a Fireman who started his service when Wholetime Retained was in service I admit it did cause problems with some personel working up to 48hr in both capacities at a time this was frowned apon by the unions and in course stopped , but this does not stop the practice today . Rather the bureaucracy of H&S the Eu (God help us all from them and Personnel departments)

Added by Dave Elms on 24 April 2012.

Back to one of the original comments, what is the current manning status of this station.
Is it now Day Manning or completely Retained Duty system, does anybody know!?

Alan Jones

Added by Alan Jones on 26 April 2012.

I think Dave's comment is most helpful. It explains why fire services in the EU, such as France and Germany, rely on volunteers to supplement on-duty full-time crews, just as British brigades employ "retained" personnel. In US cities which are large enough to have full-time departments, a recall protocol for off-duty crews is a very common practice. After 911, FDNY initiated a very elaborate recall protocol as an integral part of the city's disaster planning. These recalls are very infrequent, but they do enable some vacant stations to be staffed on a standby basis to provide supplementary coverage, manning reserve equipment - usually trucks which have completed their time as first line units. How many and their condition seems to depend mainly on the individual city's budget, but it is still often considered preferable to calling in mutual aid from small volunteer companies in adjacent communities, who may have very little actual firefighting experience. Dresden in Germany (population 400, 000) has four full-time and fourteen volunteer stations, some of which respond only at night and at weekends. At a recent four-alarm incident, two of the full-time stations responded on the first and second alarms, with four volunteer stations responding to the third and fourth. This left two full-time stations available, as well as ten volunteer stations, which is another way of using the combined full-time and on-call resources.

Added by Rob Johnson on 26 April 2012.

Penrith is day manned/rds , I was at the rehab centre in Penrith and met a local firefighter who informed of this , 1 crew wholetime/day manned , 2 crews rds on call at any one time , this was as of last month , they are due to move a mile down the road to a new community station very soon

Added by Alan Ramsay on 26 April 2012.

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