Fire Engines Photos

I believe that Staffordshire F&RS are to get two more of these to replace wholetime Water Tenders at the three-pump stations in Burton-upon-Trent and Newcastle-under-Lyme -- though they will be two-wheeled drive models which can carry slightly more water.

Added by Yelp Bullhorn on 24 September 2008.

Replacing WrTs with these converted delivery vans sounds like ridiculous, life endangering cost cuts in the same vein as the CARPs.

Added by FYREDUP1 on 29 October 2008.

4x4? ha! where's the ground clearance? a joke and a danger to the tax payers who pay for these, what a waste of time and money

Added by John Johnstone on 29 October 2008.

To be fair to Staffs F&RS, this appliance operates alonside two full-sized pumps at Hanley fire station. It deals with all the small incidents in Stoke-on-Trent. This allows the other two pumps at Hanley, and those at Newcastle (3), Longton (2), Burslem (2) and Kidsgrove (2) to respond to incidents that best suits their size. It is an additional pump to Stoke's arsenal and not a replacement.

However, when Newcastle and Burton receive one of these, they will indeed replace a wholetime pump at these three-pump stations. But they will still operate two full-sized pumps alongside the TRV.

Stafford's TRV will also replace a pump, but Stafford are gaining a second station. So Stafford will still be covered by two pumps AND a TRV.

So is it really cost-cutting? And how wasteful it is to tie-up a crew of five in a standard pump at a grass fire for a coule of hours, particularrly when a call to a 'house fire...persons reported' comes in?

Added by Yelp Bullhorn on 09 November 2008.

Two new TRVs have gone active in Staffordshire. Newcastle have DX58 FVU and Burton have DX58 FVV. Both are Merc 416CDi/Angloco, but are two-wheeled drive versions.

Added by Yelp Bullhorn on 08 March 2009.

Cheshire have 4 TRVs and are going to order some more in the new financial year!

Added by Barrie Green on 08 March 2009.

Sounds like someone has re-invented the old chimney vans, why not call
them L4P, s?

Added by Bob on 08 March 2009.

Bob....the idea of Targeted Response Vehicles in Cheshire are just that....to target the response where needed. The concept was to man the unit with a 'scatch' crew possibly from different stations and alos could be a mixture of WT and RDS personel........the unit would be sent to an problem area, maybe a housing estate which is having a problem with small fires, say wheelie bins or abandoned car fires etc. The unit would be parked in the area and respond quickly similar to the anbulance service does with their fast response cars. This saves main stream appliances from being turned out which retains their availability for 'proper shouts' This idea was used very sucessfully round the bonfire season.

Added by Barrie Green on 09 March 2009.

And if one of these appliances turn up at a proper job, what use would it be? these are a joke, designed to cut back on fire fighters jobs and offering a reduced fire fighting capability, yes i agree ok for smaller jobs, but as a replacement appliance these are a joke, soon someone will realise this, just hope it's not when someone has died .

Added by John Johnstone on 10 March 2009.

Maybe a good idea but i am not convinced, however, when i worked in control
knowing where and when fires were going to be started would have been
very useful!

Added by Bob on 10 March 2009.

Out of the 4 TRVs in use in Cheshire...2 replace retained 2nd pumps the other 2 are aditional resources i.e. second pumps in stations who previously only had a single pump.

Added by Barrie Green on 11 March 2009.

Hanley has new TRV-DX10 EYM fleet number: 460
Staffords TRV is DX10 EYO fleet number: 461

Added by Eric Elsmore on 30 October 2010.

This concept is not new. Fire services as far afield as France, Germany, Greece, the US, Brazil and the Middle East use these kinds of modified delivery vans and light trucks as Minor Alarm Response Units, with a two or three man crew. The principal idea is to avoid diluting fire cover, by sending a MARU instead of a full-sized pumper with a five or six man crew to minor incidents. These include AFAs, RTAS, non-structure fires and special service calls. In many cities, such calls account for 80% or more of all alarms, and can otherwise tie up equipment and manpower which is really needed for a timely response to a structure fire or rescue situation. The MARU normally carries around 500 to 850 liters of water and has a CAFS system, so it can actually handle a fairly decent-sized fire on its own. Simultaneous or overlapping minor incident calls are a much bigger problem than second-alarm incidents, and this is an excellent way of maintaining good coverage - as the numbers of AFA calls, RTA turnouts and special service calls all continue to grow every year.

Added by Rob Johnson on 21 February 2012.

17 of these replacing 2nd Appliances in Mid and West Wales, pity 4 of them are replacing 2nd's (4x 4500 lpm pumps) in Milford Haven. (Check out what industry is in Milford on Google Earth)!

Added by D.K on 21 February 2012.

I am glad to see someone has brought AFA's into the conversation. AFA's are only false alarms once they have been dealt with and never before. I am sure most operational fire fighters can cite instances of turning out to an AFA and arriving at a working job. I have responded when the tip sheet said AFA and the stop message said two people rescued by fire service.

Added by Monkey Boy The 3rd on 22 February 2012.

There is another side to the AFA story. Some time ago, Greater Manchester FRS reduced all non-confirmed AFA responses to one pump and required that all AFA responses be at normal traffic speed, without using blue lights or sirens. As a result, RTAs involving fire service vehcles dropped by 30%, bringing about a significant reduction in firefighter and civilian injuries and property damage. In the US, most cities with full-time crews have also cut back on personnel and apparatus assigned as first responders to AFA calls, and - for example - San Francisco reports that 98% of AFAs do not involve fires or other emergency situations. Most large cities in France and Germany dispatch only a MARU (Premier Secours or Kleinalarmfahrzeug) with a small crew.

Added by Rob Johnson on 22 February 2012.

Devon & Somerset Fire & Rescue Service are also "re-inventing the wheel" and they will REPLACE full-size pumps at many stations. Me-thinks that the Home Office and therefore, the politicians are heavily involved in this and that it is not altogether being driven by anything other than politics and not on-the-ground common sense - it will end in tears. Mind you, there are problems getting everything on to a van chassis rather than a lorry chassis and "over" & "weight" are the words which are springing to mind. Complimentary but not in place of, unless you live somewhere like Gibratar.

Added by Chris Dyer on 16 July 2013.

German experience with Klaf (minor alarm) trucks is quite revealing. When the concept first evolved about thirty years ago, the units were mostly standard delivery vans with 3 ton gross weights.

Since then, they have grown considerably and now many of the newer ones are Mercedes Vario 8 tonners with 180 horsepower engines and 1000 liter tanks for their CAFS installation. They carry ladders, BA, hazmat equipment and hydraulic extrication gear, as well as a considerable load of special equipment for non-fire service calls.

The single cab accommodates 2 or 3 members.

Bear in mind also that these units are mainly used in Germany by full-time fire services, to save manpower and full-sized units from being tied up unnecessarily at a multitude of minor incidents. So the aim (and fortunately the effect) is to actually improve fire coverage, not to dilute it.

They are not all that common amongst volunteer services, because they have no shortage of personnel or appliances, since they have no payroll expense. Turning out a full-sized pumper with a six man crew is not an issue for most of the volunteers, even if the call is an AFA or a lockout.

Perhaps the pendulum will swing back to larger vehicles like the Vario 818 in Devon & Somerset after the limitations of the really small units become more obvious.

Added by Rob Johnson on 16 July 2013.

Rob,
there's another reason why 7.5 tons trucks were quite popular in Germany - one could drive them with a normal driver's license. This was changed a few years ago I think but the old licenses kept being valid, of course. So there were a lot more possible drivers for such a vehicle.

Unfortunately also volonteer fire depts. here in Austria and in Germany are lacking personal. Especially in rural areas with not so many jobs. Younger people either move away or work in different towns and return only in the evening. Nevertheless many smaller fire departments run full sized trucks as those would be needed with larger fires. It's often the only truck with fire fighting abilities while the other cars they own are often for transport etc. only.

Professional fire departments run more different = specialised trucks so for them smaller units are beneficial as it saves personnel. Here a fire truck of the professional fire dept of my hometown always leaves station fully manned so if you can assign a smaller unit to a certain call it helps with costs.

Added by Martin on 17 July 2013.

Now that these have been deployed for ten years, do we have any feedback about how well their introduction is working?

Added by Rob Johnson on 09 March 2018.

Not that well. Out of the five they had only one is operational as a second pump rather than a TRV. Believe they still have two in reserve. One sold is now in the British Virgin Islands and the other was for sale with Angloco.

Added by Adam on 17 March 2018.

Adam, by any chance do you know which Staffs station still operates one?

Added by Yelp Bullhorn on 21 March 2018.

Lichfield has it. The 2nd pump was reduced to the TRV during the last round of savings when Stone and Rugeley lost the 2nd pumps.

Added by Adam on 22 March 2018.

Adam:

Thanks for the update.

In my view these are no substitute for a full specification or full size pump appliance.

If you have to reduce fire protection for cost reasons, there are a lot more sensible ways of doing so - for example switching some positions from full-time to retained, or - as I have mentioned many times on this site - doing what practically every other country in the World does, which is bringing unpaid volunteers on to the strength.

Replacing pumps with TRV type units is delusional - no other word for it!

Added by Rob Johnson on 22 March 2018.

Hi Rob. I have to agree with your "delusional" appraisal of these fake fire engines, but Staffordshire FRS never really intended to replace proper engines with these ridiculous efforts; unfortunately it just worked out that way because of the relentless beast called Austerity. If you read my comment further up this page hopefully you'll understand how it all panned out.

Further to that, Cannock actually had one of these alongside a Scania Pump Rescue Ladder, a 4x4 M.A.N. Rural Response Water Tender and a Unimog Heathland Water Tender/Animal Rescue Unit. So effectively, for a short time at least, Cannock became a four-pump station! Well.... perhaps, two-and-two-halves!

Added by Yelp Bullhorn on 23 March 2018.

This appliance is now in the fleet owned by FireTech in Dorset for event cover and was recently operational at the Goodwood Festival of Speed. It was joined there by another FireTech Mercedes-Benz Sprinter, ex Royal Berkshire RX54 LAA built by Rosenbauer.

Added by Simon Rowley on 19 September 2023.

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