Fire Engines Photos

Yes its owned by Dr Barry Hutchinson (Doctor Dennis) who posts on here......its one of only a couple of non-Dennis machines in his extensive collection of fire engines mostly from the North-East.
It was originally donated to the National Museum project .... but like many of the exhibits was left to deteriorate.
The Firemaster is based on a Leyland bus chassis and has an air operated semi-automatic gearbox.

Added by Barrie Green on 13 February 2013.

The front grille is fake - all that is behind it is a big empty space, as this bus chassis' engine was under the floor below the bodywork behind the cab.

The other Firemaster TL, built for Wolverhampton, had a front mounted 500 IGPM pump behind a pair of doors in this area under the cab floor. Apart from one ET, the others all had fronr-mounted 1, 000 IGPM pumps are were either pump-escapes (Birmingham and Glasgow) or pump-emergency tenders (Essex). Only about 11 were ever built, as this design really offered nothing which could not already be found on contemporary custom Dennis or standard commercial truck chassis.

In particular, using the Leyland bus chassis resulted in a rather tall crew cab on the TL version. 999 MHN barely fit in the old 1904 vintage Borough Road Fire Station!

This is not the first (or last) time a bus chassis has been adapted for fire engine use. One of the first enclosed pumps ever built in the UK was supplied (also to Darlington) in 1930/31 on a modified Dennis bus chassis. So were the early 1950s AEC-Maudslay-Merryweather pump-escapes, TLs and ETs which went to the LCC and many other UK fire brigades. More recently, we have seen Ford BA tenders in London, a Volvo pump in Sweden, Mercedes ICUs in Germany, rehab units in New York and Mercedes city service ladder trucks in Chile - all on bus chassis.

There have also been two other efforts to market custom front-mounted pumpers in both the UK and Australia, but neither of these proved popular either - probably because they provided answers to questions nobody was asking.

Once quite commonplace in northern Europe, Italy and some areas of north America, even front-mounted pumps on regular truck chassis have now almost completely disappeared.

All this variety is fun for those of us who have an interest in fire engine history, but the next generation of enthusiasts will struggle to uncover anything like the diversity we saw in the last 100 years.

Added by Rob Johnson on 13 February 2013.

I don't think Birmingham had any Firemasters but Manchester certainly did. One theory could be that noise levels are down and cab access can be larger with the engine out of the cab.

Added by Neal Glover on 13 February 2013.

All the Glasgow pumps and both the TLs had rear cab doors, but the others had the officer's seat in the centre of the front of the cab and the rest of the crew on two inward-facing longitudinal bench seats, above the wheel arches.

This arrangement meant that everyone except the driver had to use the single passenger side door (just like a bus!) to access and exit the cab. This was the configuration of the units which I believe went to Birmingham and also saw in use in Essex. Access for those versions which had rear doors was none too easy, either, because it was quite a climb and required the front wheel step ring to get up there.

Neither TL ran with a full crew, so the rear seat access was moot. 999 MHN actually ran most of the time with only a driver, who shared this duty with driving the third due pump water-tender, and then additionally with an ERF Snorkel (SHN 999F)which joined the fleet in 1967.

As for Machester, I never saw any reference to them buying Firemasters, but if they did, I suspect they too only bought a few and did not continue to put them in to their fleet for very long.

Added by Rob Johnson on 14 February 2013.

Manchester had a few as Pump Escapes, Pumps and at least one E.T I can remember them being on the run at London Road.

Added by Dave Price on 14 February 2013.

Have been reading with interest the comments on the Firemaster's, Manchester were I believe the first to get a PE and worked closely with Leyland Motors in the developement of the Leyland Firemaster chassis as it followed very closely the Dennis F18 built specially to the design of the then Manchester Chief, with an automatic gearbox and front mounted high pressure Metz pump.
Regarding the size of the cab, I remember as a young fireman turning out in the Darlington TL turning right by the town clock when the Leading Fireman driving suddenly shot back in his seat, the adjusting lock failed, luckily I was able to walk round the back of the cab and hold his seat in position until we reached the Memorial Hospital, happy days, we probably would both be on a charge now for breaking H&S but then it was good practical firemanship getting to the incident !!!!!
The photo shows her back in her home town for the first time in about 15 years thanks to Dr H.
I also had the privlige to drive her to HQ on her last run from Darlington prior to handing to the FSNMT.

Added by Brett Clayton on 14 February 2013.

I should like to know more about the Dennis F18 - I don't recall seeing any photos of it on this site and it certainly sounds like a very interesting "one-off". Perhaps one of our Dennis experts has more to add?

I grew up in Darlington, and I know exactly where the corner you mention is located. Just be thankful you were not on 999 MHN's predecessor, the Morris Magirus open cab TL which it replaced in 1960. Neither of you would have likely even survived the driver's seat falling apart!

Added by Rob Johnson on 14 February 2013.

Rob Manchester had four Firemasters
WXJ 286 Carmichael PE London Road 1959
7596 N Cocker PE London Road 1960
6461 ND Smith ET London Road 1962
6900 NF Cocker PE Ash Street-Blackley 1963
They lasted in service until about 1976. 6900 is still alive and well and living in South Yorks (there is a pic on this site)....The ET was purloined by the New Age Travellers the other two were scrapped presumably. I was common belief that 10 Firemasters were built but it was revealed the there was an 11th left hand drive machine was built for the middle east.
As regards the F18.....I only see 2 of these built in 1953 and 1955, I do have a pic but it is not my copyright but can be seen on the Withington page of Norman Price's Delta64 site

Added by Barrie Green on 14 February 2013.

Rob, very interesting choice of vehicle the F18.Dennis supplied only 2 Dennis F18 chassis only both to the Manchester FB.The first on 14/08/1953, Chassis 3790 WPO 40594.Its body was built by Bankfield of Southport.Its reg number NXJ 45 and was fitted with a Metz front pump.
The seconded chassis number 4677 WPO 40849 was pupplied 10/02/1955 again with Bankfield body, however this had a Hathaway front pump reg number ONB 876

Added by Wayne Davies on 14 February 2013.

The Dennis F18 served at Withington in Manchester FB as a pump escape ONB876 and is on the Delta64 website. The front mounted pump is clear. It was a one off I think, possibly a variant of the F15? Unusually for an appliance of that era it had roller shutters, and a sliding crew door, rare on a Dennis.

Added by Peter Williams on 14 February 2013.

Indeed picture 31790 shows the Manchester PE 6900 NF with the two-door cab configuration I mentioned. To my mind, it seems a bit daft! For some reason I thought two or three of these went to Birmingham, but I may have confused our rival British "second cities". It was a few years ago, after all!

Now that I have seen one of the F18s, I am puzzled why anyone would specify this design over the contemporary F12, which was an outstanding design and widely popular. It is not clear what advantages the F18 offered, and cab access was certainly compromised. Even Manchester, who must have paid a premium to get these soecial one-off appliances designed and built, only bought two.

Anybody know the "inside story"?

Added by Rob Johnson on 14 February 2013.

Manchester seamed to go for unusual appliances, They also had a fleet of Albion Chieftain Pumps and Pump Escapes and E.T

Added by Dave Price on 15 February 2013.

I found this Commercial Motor 12th August 1955 extract: AFTER 18 months' trial of a Dennis fire-engine with Rolls-Royce engine and Rolls-Royce fully automatic gearbox, the first of its kind in the country. Manchester Fire Brigade has purchased another appliance of similar design and has ordered a third. It is believed that the automatic gearbox is likely to be standard for all Manchester fire appliances in the future. It is similar in design to those in use on Rolls-Royce ears.
The second Dennis, which has a Rolls-Royce B80 power unit, has bodywork built to the Manchester brigade specification by the Bankfield Engineering Co.. Ltd., Southport. The brigade workshop has fitted a power transfer box behind the automatic gearbox and a Sigmund 900-g.p.m. pump has been added at the rear of the appliance. By this means the drive can be put through to the hack wheels or full torque can be transmitted to the rear pump.
The pump and transfer box are controlled from the cab, a tell-tale light in front of the driver indicating when the pump is in action. The next Dennis chassis for the Manchester brigade is to be supplied by the manufacturers already incorporating a Rolls-Royce transfer box.
A small Hathaway pump. giving 70 g.p.m. at 500 p.s.i., is located in front. of the radiator of the second appliance, with a direct coupling to the engine by means of an oil clutch.
Fire officers who have inspected the appliances under operational conditions state that drivers become fully "at home" with the automatic gearbox in about two hours and are able to concentrate solely on steering and braking. Heavy wear on clutches and gearboxes is common with normal fire-brigade vehicles, It is claimed that economies arising in this connection can be set off against the extra cost of the automatic gearbox. (It is available on line in the Commercial Motor archives.)



Added by Peter Williams on 15 February 2013.

Thanks Peter. Fascinating archive!

So the F18 had a small high pressure front-mounted pump and a conventional rear volume pump. This explains why the photos of the F18 on the delta64 site do not show any water inlets or deliveries at the front of the appliance.



Added by Rob Johnson on 16 February 2013.

One of the two very unusual Essex Firemaster PESTs can be seen in photos 38240 and 38254 on this suite. I do hope one of these still exists, because - like the pump escapes and turntable ladders - they were a piece of history. Leyland's abortive effort to get back into the fire engine business after a long absence, from being a leading manufacturer building large numbers of fire engines in the 1930s.

Added by Rob Johnson on 11 January 2018.

City of Manchester 6900 NF is now owned by the Manchester Fire Museum at Rochdale under going restoration, I saw it 12.1.18. They are hoping to get on the road by this summer, I'm really looking forward to seeing it as I remember them on the run as a lad being brought up in Manchester.

Added by Paul Warnock on 14 January 2018.

front view of NXJ45 here pumping

www.flickr.com/photos/100386692@N04/39006136205

Added by Petros on 26 October 2022.

This photo does rather dramatically illustrate one of the few disadvantages of this design, which is that the front cowl was very high - so the driver could not see anything close to the front of the appliance.

Not ideal when it comes to positioning a TL sometimes!

Added by Rob Johnson on 26 October 2022.

A Dennis F18 Bankfield is here



Added by Petros on 27 October 2022.

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