Fire Engines Photos

Looks like a more intelligent stowage system for the 13.5 meter ladder than is usually found on British appliances.

This approach makes room for a larger tank and/or increased locker space on the same size chassis.

Added by Rob Johnson on 30 January 2017.

The first batch of Dennis Rapiers Humberside ordered L236-40 CAG had this 'intelligent' design of 135 ladder stowage..it was awful...if you slip the ladder off the beam gantry at anything other than directly in line with the gantry the head runner snagged with a risk of damaging the gantry..the same applied when replacing the ladder on the gantry...also as the gantry was so high up on the bodywork there wasn't a 'natural slope' to push the ladder up..as a result the gantry tended to try to return to the horizontal position whilst the ladder was still being replaced on the vehicle...two crew members had to be utilised to pull the beam gantry down from underneath to prevent this !...needless to say every other pumping appliance Humberside has ordered since these has a proper ladder gantry fitted !
As for increased space and larger water tank..the water tank needs to be as low as possible in the chassis (centre of gravity) and if you stow equipment (even light stuff) higher up you then have an access problem to reach it ?


Added by Rick Loudon on 03 February 2017.

Rick - I think citing old Dennis Rapier trucks may be missing the point that technology has moved on quite a bit since those days. (At least in some places!)

All of these are "problems" which fire services and fire pump builders all over Europe have managed to solve - most of them years ago!

Different approaches have been employed, including many clever designs for powered ladder racks, folding steps and slide-out equipment boards.

Take a look at some of the "opened up" Dutch, Belgian, French and German units on this site to see how these work.

As far as larger water tanks are concerned, obviously it necessary to install them as low as possible, but if you have extra space you can have a bigger tank and move storage of lighter items higher on the truck, with powered shelving and/or folding steps for easy access.

There are many examples of pumps on this site which combine a 15 meter ladder with a 3000 liter tank, class B foam, CAFS, full extrication equipment and a comprehensive suite of hoses and firefighting equipment as well as a six-person cab with BA seatback inserts.

It helps that 15 meter ladders used in Europe weigh about 25 KG less than the current 13.5 ladders on offer in the UK . But I expect British fire services could buy them if they wanted to...

Added by Rob Johnson on 03 February 2017.

Rob. The Dennis Rapier was an example ..the first 5 for Humberside had one of the Angus Sacol gantries(which were never designed for the 13.5m ladder) fitted on a flat roof..it could have been any appliance but the fact is it was on a Rapier..however it could have been on a Scania or Volvo or any other make !

Can you answer why we have to have'powered gantries' folding steps, led lights as a tank level indicator, etc etc ?

Added by Rick Loudon on 09 February 2017.

Hi Rick. The general answer is that many of these features provide more resources for firefighters, whose job does not get any easier as time passes, and perhaps help to make it a bit less stressful and not quite as dangerous occupation.

As for the reference to Dennis, I agree it is the appliance builder, not the chassis manufacturer, who is responsible for the bodywork. But in Rapier days, Dennis often did do both.

I don't mean to suggest that every new idea is necessarily a good one, but of course many really are!

Added by Rob Johnson on 09 February 2017.

Rob

I don't think Dennis ever built anything other than the superb chassis and cab for the Rapier or Sabre (or many of the preceding SS or RS variants for that matter) the rear bodywork was always (as far as I am aware) constructed by one of the many body builders out there..some who remain to this day some who don't..maybe to a specific request for certain items by a brigades transport manager.

The suppliers are always going to try to make the most profit from each unit supplied...hence 'powered ladder gantries' and LED lights for a tank gauge ...I cannot for the life of me see the advantage over a table tennis ball in a manometer tube from LED lights that one second tell the pump operator there is a quarter of a tank left and the next second its empty ! and, other than due to the fact the entry requirements for firefighters have been lowered I can see very little reason for a powered ladder gantry !

I'll concede that slide out equipment racks are a step forward..as are boxes on the roof stowed on Angus sacol beam gantrys..but folding steps ?? Please !!!!..when they fail (as they will) the appliance goes off the run because its not safe to get in or out or reach equipment because of 'vertically challenged firefighters' !

I'm really not trying to be argumentative...but it strikes me you are looking at things from the salesmans side and not the practical firefighters side !..Don't even get me started on LED pump screens instead of levers, gauges and handwheels !

Added by Rick Loudon on 11 February 2017.

Rick - I did sell eleven Ford D series to Gloucestershire with HCB Angus bodywork (not my fault!) in 1967 and a batch of IVECOs with EMPL bodies to Kuwait in 2006. But I have not sold anything except the chassis, and I am not trying to start now!

Here in the US, where almost every fire truck is custom built to each fire department's specific requirements, manufacturers compete to provide what their customers really want.

So it should be in other countries, too.

If companies spend time and money engineering and developing capabilities that fire services do not want, they only have themselves to blame.

But we need innovation. In the eighteenth century it took decades to get the first leather fire hoses accepted, because of the risk of them bursting, so firefighters continued to rely on syringes and playpipes mounted on their hand pumpers.

The steam fire engine was invented in 1822, but it was thirty years later before they started to be put into general use, and another thirty before they became the standard in large towns and cities.

The same lengthy adoption periods have also applied to such innovations as BA, turntable ladders, and aluminium ground ladders - and we are now still experiencing it with the slow adoption of CAFS in the UK (not to mention some US departments including FDNY!)

I think we basically agree. Our difference is that I am always interested in efforts by manufacturers to make the job easier and safer, because the variety of challenges modern firefighters face is not going to get any less of a handful in the future.

Added by Rob Johnson on 14 February 2017.

Comment removed at request of Commentor

Comment removed at request of Commentor

Andy,

I'm aware Dennis' used to build complete fire engines (you only have to view the records and photos at the Surrey History Centre to appreciate this !) My point was Rob is under the impression that Dennis' built complete Rapiers which is most definatly not the case !

Rob, ....innovation is indeed a wonderful thing..but, as I said some things are just so ridiculous they can only have been dreamt up by a non operational firefighter ! LED pump control panels that you can't read when they are wet (very likely to happen in a pump bay) or when the sun is shining on them !

We had two Scania appliances from two different batch orders a couple of years apart..both with Rosenbaur pumps..on one to increase revs you moved the feeble little toggle lever up and on the other you had to move it down..and on one it came of in the pump operators fingers on a job !!

As I said LED tank gauges were an absolute disaster..no way could the pump operator determine if there was half a tank or a quarter of a tank unless they stood there with a calculator to work out the discharge from branches and timed it..with a ball in a tube of water it took a quick glance to check whilst watching the branchman on a ladder or getting a water supply sorted..of course you had to keep the tube clean..but that was a bit of hose wire fastened to a rag and pulled through the tube !

We were told by Angus Sacol that the Angus 464 ladder was too heavy for the beam gantry as they were designed for smaller lighter ladders !

As for CAFS I believe we stopped using it because the environment agency didn't like it entering the watercourse !

Added by Rick Loudon on 15 February 2017.

Yes I have heard the same about CAFS. It seems inexplicable, because the solution is basically the same formula as good old fashioned washing up liquid.

It is widespread now in northern and central European countries, as well as Germany, France, Austria, much of north America and Australia.

And some UK brigades do seem to have CAFS units in their fleets, although by no means the majority.

The only restriction I have heard about in any of these other countries is that the Australian fire services are not supposed to use CAFS where the runoff is near open water sources. Otherwise - no problems!

I am a big fan of CAFS, because it is so effective, reducing knockdown and extinguishment times by as much as half for a set level of LPM, compared to plain water.

Really significant on wildland fires, where water supplies rely on tank capacities!

Much safer on interior structure fires too, because personnel are in a hot, unbreathable and low visibility environment for much less time.

Added by Rob Johnson on 16 February 2017.

It's amazing how we keep reinventing the wheels. I swore by Rapier and Sabre. And before that Bedford TK with Angus bodywork. Now we have lorries posing as machines with LED lighting, lorry cabs with awful rear access for crews and all the rest of the profit driven madness. I think leasing has a lot to answer for, brigades get what they are given. Rather than investment in quality, good workshops and long term investment we have moved to cheap and cheerful. However it is not cheap is it? I have been advocating a return to NFS for years for this very reason. Scale of economy and a national approach to standardisation. We have seen such wonderful examples of waste over the years, Sussex "white roofs" at £10, 000 a time, Carps which were tried in the seventies and rejected, lessons unlearned. Then I am a dinosaur, a good solid and reliable appliance kept in trim and good order for years, replaced with toys.

Added by John Stott on 21 February 2017.

Interesting that national fire services such as Italy and Poland do not seem to have standardized specifications, and Italy - which was IVECO only - now has lots of Mercedes and Volvos. Perhaps Scotland will standardize on Scania, but of course the Scania crew cab with its multiple exposed steps is not ideal either.

Added by Rob Johnson on 22 February 2017.

Scotland will not standardise on scania for a lot of reasons , obvious one is they do not do the size of chassis needed for smaller stations , since the single scottish service inception almost four years ago its been a 50/50 split on wt/l for scania and volvo who incidentally do not suppply smaller chassis either and these have been mercedes/man up to now but as none have been purchased since inception its difficult to know where future smaller appliances will come from , Volvo have supplied chassis for a fleet of new aerial appliances on order including a new t/l for Edinburgh and 9 plus six wheel alps with Rosenbaur bodies , fleet renewals will take time but it seems the heavier wt/l will be Scania with the Volvo fl being a couple of tons lighter being used in similar numbers , as I say midi appliances we dont know yet but all will be revealed in due course but no carp/crap renewals and nd back to dedicated high reach appliances can only be good news.

Added by Alan Ramsay on 27 February 2017.

Yes but those multiple exposed steps never fail..like fold out or hinged ones do...they're just a pig to keep clean !!!

Added by Rick Loudon on 01 March 2017.

The midis may be Mitsubishi or similar sized Hino, Nissan or Isuzus, similar to the Canters already in use there.

Added by Rob Johnson on 02 March 2017.

I agree Rick, in my experience the fold out stick out or don't fold out as corrosion and trapped dirt take their toll, but can I just say with a set on and fully rigged its OK if your twenty but at fifty five its just not funny the physical height of crew cabs these days , I know its always been an issue apart from in my time Dennis rapier and Dennis sabre which had simply brilliant egress and ingress , the scania is not alone my neighbouring brigade has some man appliances , not the ridiculous looking ones with the tiny wheels but the factory cad and its just ridiculous , Volvo is not any better only Mercedes being anything like decent , some cabs from coach builders are not quite so bad but in general the factory safe cabs need working at height regs to get in and out !!

Added by Alan Ramsay on 02 March 2017.

Hi Alan

Yes ...its down to the old story...Commercial vehicles adapted or converted into fire engines only tick one box..cheapness in supply and quick 24 hour maintainence (ok that's two ticks) !

I dive HGV's in my semi retirement and as you say the big DAF XF's for example need fall arrest gear to get in and out of..but then I'm only carrying a 'Yorkie bar' LOL !

Trying to get out of a similar converted HGV fully rigged and quickly is an accident waiting to happen in my opinion ?

And, as you rightly say the Rapier and Sabre were designed for firefighters...unfortunately European emissions laws and the fact that some brigades wanted to carry too much kit on them was their downfall...along with the servicing/parts availability !

Added by Rick Loudon on 02 March 2017.

Rick you speak my language. As for the smaller pumps needed the Japanese makes are a way forward I feel. Mitsubishi are very well put together and well thought out designs. I looked at a "grey import" Mitsubishi pump last year and was very impressed. Crew access was safe in design, gear stowage was good. Decent tubing and hose stowage and four BA sets. Only thing was a downside was a 250 gallon water tank and no foam making gear carried. I understand Japanese brigades have a machine for every job so not an issue for them. For a lot of rural / retained stations these would seem a good solution. Better than many of the glorified vans trialed of late.

Added by John Stott on 03 March 2017.

Had highlands and islands had several canters around 1998 and built no more , I have no idea why but I am sure someone will , probably due to GI ing a new appliance to a station with less than 50 calls o'er year was not cost effective and denying the new appliance to whole time and the hand downs getting older and the canters having very low mileage when 15 years old

Added by Alan Ramsay on 07 March 2017.

John:- I agree! Mercedes are marketing the Canter in Europe now they have discontinued the Vario.

Lentner, the German fire appliance builders, can fit a 1000 liter tank within the 7.5 tonne GVW, but an available 8.5 tonne version on the same wheelbase could accommodate a full 1800 liter tank. The existing 7.5 tonne truck has a five man cab, a 2000 LPM pump and most of the locker space found on larger units.

They are of course universal in Japan and most far eastern countries.

Varios used to be everywhere in Germany's 22, 000 (!) volunteer fire companies, and my bet is that we will be seeing hundreds of Cantors among them in the coming years.

Added by Rob Johnson on 07 March 2017.

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