Fire Engines Photos

Any idea were it was stationed as ED is the old Warrington CB registration.

Added by Dave Price on 05 May 2011.

Dave,
Yes, a Warrington registration, but it was never with that brigade.
It was new to Greenall Whitley

Added by Ian Moore on 05 May 2011.

I wish I was in Greenhall Whitley land, where hearts are warm and beer is cool. So much history has been eradicated from the face of our towns and cities it dosen't bare thinking about. One of my favourite fire engines was 4000 ED a Dennis F27/Magirus 100' TL. I'm told she's in preservation but does anyone know where she is?

Added by Andrew Middleton on 05 May 2011.

This may be one of the World's earliest fire pumps with a first aid tank, pump and reel. At this time, most pumpers had no tanks, and those that did were mainly chemical engines with soda-acid systems - which were essentially like a fire extinguisher on steroids.

As the "booster" first aid pump system was first introduced in the US in 1923 by Mack, I am wondering if this setup was original on this Dennis in 1914, or perhaps a later modification?

I imagine that if anyone knows the answer, it will most likely be Doctor Barry!

Added by Rob Johnson on 01 September 2013.

Rob, the hose reel was a standard fitting from new. A small gear driven pump, which is engaged by a lever on the side of the chassis, feeds the reel from the internal tank. Most Dennis 'N' types did not have this feature. The only other one in preservation is FA1075 which was also supplied new to a brewery. I do not think that this is co-incidental.

Added by Dr. B. A. Hutchinson on 02 September 2013.

The US manufacturers took nine years to catch up!
Such a pity UK innovators did not keep up their lead in fire appliance design and manufacturing.

Added by Rob Johnson on 02 September 2013.

Penge Urban District Council Fire Brigade had one of these Dennis N type's as a PE, which was fitted from new with a hose reel and (if memory serves) a 20 gallon tank, it was bought from Dennis's with the money from selling an earler Merryweather PE back to Merryweather's, in the mid 1920's. The Dennis PE was the only Fire Engine Penge UDC had, (though they did have various makes of Ambulances which were crewed by the Firemen, and if necessary one of the Fireman's wives!) The Dennis PE was "modenised" in the 1930's with a windscreen and pnematic tyres and was the first Fire Appliance at the Crystal Palace Fire in 1936. It was used at Penge by the NFS from 1941, but proberly scraped by the Kent Fire Brigade when they closed Penge Fire Station in 1948. (The Penge Firemen where transfered to Beckenham Fire Station).

Added by Chris Stone on 03 September 2013.

All of my American fire apparatus sources cite Ahrens-Fox as the innovator of booster-equipped fire apparatus in 1913 with a "booster and hose car" known as the Model D Scout. In 1915 a Model K-11 "Booster pumper" was offered, with 1st delivery to Chicago Heights, ILL.By 1922, booster tanks were available on the big front mount piston pumps, as a 60 gal. tank was included on a Model RK-4 delivery in 1922 to my hometown.
I cannot find any reference to the 1923 date of Mack's 1st booster-equipped rig, but would be happy to list my references concerning the above material.

Added by Warren W. Jenkins on 03 September 2013.

In June 1904 Merryweather & Sons filed a patent for First aid Equipment, (Booster reel) on their Fire King steam self propelled fire engines. Liverpool ordered one in August 1904 with a booster reel. In 1906 Edinburgh Fire Brigade bought a Fire King with Booster reel fed by a small steam pump! Sorry Ahrens Fox!

Added by Ronald Henderson on 04 September 2013.

Warren - thanks for the correction! The reference to Mack's booster pump sytem as being the first one installed on a full-scale pumper in 1923 came from one of many apparatus historical books that I have read over the years, but I am no longer exactly sure which one. I do recall that it covered the period 1900 to 1960, and included hundreds of photos.

Thanks for the correction - perhaps you should write your own history, as it looks like it would be more accurate than some others already out there! And, judging by some of your photos on this site, it would also be very well illustrated.

From your comment, it seems Ahrens-Fox were in fact only a year ahead of Mack when it came to installing a booster pump on a full-size pumper, as their earlier booster pump trucks were basically an alternative to the chemical engines of the day, or what would be called hose reel tenders in the UK.

I find it interesting that it did take quite a long time for booster pumps to replace chemical engines in the US, as these were still being ordered by some fire departments well in to the 1930s.

Still, we have to give kudos to Dennis for being the first to combine a second PTO-driven first-aid pump, tank and hose reel system along with the main centrifugal pump sytem on a fire engine - now eight years before anyone else we have found!

Added by Rob Johnson on 04 September 2013.

Ronald - Many years ago I saw a photo of the first Merryweather petrol-engined motor pump escape supplied to Finchley in - I think - 1904, and it looked as if it too may have had a hose reel system. Do you also happen to have any insights into this early motor appliance's specification? I seem to remember the main pump was 250 gpm.

Added by Rob Johnson on 05 September 2013.

Further research in the Ahrens-Fox delivery list in Ed Hass'"Ahrens-Fox:Rolls Royce of Fire Engines", reveals that the Model K-11 had a front mount 250 GPM ROTARY pump, and also booster equipment was available on the piston pumpers as early as 1916, with the booster option having its own number(4) in the A-F catalog. Further, A-F's only US Govt apparatus order was an order for 15 IK-4 triple combinations with booster equipment in 1918("Ahrens-Fox Photo Archive by Walter McCall").I certainly did not mean to imply that the 1922 A-F delivery to my hometown was the 1st piston pumper with a booster.
All of the other major American builders lagged behind for years, I have not found a Mack photo before 1927 with a booster, same with Seagrave.The false advertising with chemical equipment was the claim about the chemical(sulphuric acid)enhancing the soda water in the chemical tank up to 30 times its normal extinguishing capability. In the end, plain water worked just as well, however it is a fact that chemical rigs put out about 80% of all fires in the US between the early 1870s to the 1930s.("Firefighting Lore" by Fred Conway) Even by the 1920s, chemical rigs still put out 40% of all fires fought by the depts. that were still using them.
I would also point out that wooden aerial ladders also died a slow death in the US.
Finally, Mr. Johnson, I am a published author, having co-authored or authored myself 2 books on fire service history here in Maryland. I also contributed 3 articles to SPAAMFAA's Enjine!Enjine! magazine from 2007 to 2011 dealing with small apparatus builders in the Eastern US.

Added by Warren W. Jenkins on 06 September 2013.

Very interesting! There are quite a few Ahrens-Fox pumpers in preservation amongst some of the volunteer fire companies in the suburbs around New York City, and many of them were in front line service for an amazingly long time.

Added by Rob Johnson on 07 September 2013.

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